I am Jack’s smirking revenge.
Watched an old favorite movie tonight with Mr. Green; FIGHT CLUB; Yes i have certainly been in a fighting spirit latey; Want to read my first ever Slash Dot Post;
Anonymous_Coward01 Says:
I’m not a pro with flash development, but given the advances that javascript, CSS and DHTML are making, combined with stuff like squirrelfish extreme and the canvas object, how much potential does flash still have ? don’t get me wrong : I don’t want to go on a flash-bashing parade here ! I’m just wondering if the current state of javascript in modern browsers isn’t up-to-par with flash for 90% of whatever flash is doing right now. The only advantages of flash are code-protection and vector graphics. But I can’t really see a bonus for either of those two when it comes to rich-application-development : vectors are irrelevant here, and anyone who thinks he can just copy someone’s client-side of a complete platform, and reverse engineer the server side is bound to get his head stuck in someone’s ass sooner or later
PierceP says:
I politely disagree with you; AS3, the native language of the flash player is what javascript wants be when it grows up; now i do agree that the antiquated display technologies of javascript, css, and DHTML have made some impressive strides and are able to mimic 90 percent of the things the flash player could pull off with ease five years ago; however what flash is doing very well right now is pushing the internet forward; To say that the only advantages of using the flash platform are non existent code protection and vector graphics is be misinformed; Hmm i think there are few others you could quickly add that list; how about speed; is javascript able to render anything more than primative objects at a decent frame rate; what about socket connections; can javascript read and write to xmpp presence packet all by its little old self; hmm what else; MEDIA yeah; would anyone be watching youtube in a javascript only world; when will we see a new dawn of javascript powered browser based virtual worlds; i’ll be waiting; and don’t even get me started about javascript reduced development time due to its inherantly prototyped based nature and the its dependence on html and css to display information; if you want to look backwards by all means enjoy your javascript, css, and dtml lag time, however in the mean time the inbetween time if you want to be on the edge of web based expierences and applications the flash player is still the best film in town;
Anonymous_Coward01 Says:
As a language (i.e. not including the libraries), ActionScript is really just JavaScript in disguise. In fact, it is JavaScript; ActionScript is a variant of the ECMAscript language. As such, the core features of the langauges don’t differ much. AS does appear to be more “enterprisey”, though. First off: You’re conflating the language with the library, so I’ll assume that by JavaScript you actually meant the HTML DOM, and by ActionScript, you actually meant Flash. Now, to answer your question: No, the HTML DOM does not have capabilities for rendering 3D. I’ll have to argue that it doesn’t need 3D rendering capabilities. Do you need 3D rendering capabilities to read email or post comments to Slashdot? Both use JavaScript and the HTML DOM, and you didn’t need to install anything fancy other than your browser to do it. No, the HTML DOM cannot. This is a problem, but I think the HTML 5 standard includes a model for “pushing” data to the user agent, so this need will be fulfilled in a later version. The mark of an inexperienced developer. First off, JavaScript is OO - it uses prototypal inheritance, which is more lightweight than the classful inheritance of ActionScript - lightweight being the key word here. Remember that the languages are being used for different purposes.
Again, conflating the language with the HTML DOM. The answer is, again, no. The new HTML 5, however, will include a standard for playing multimedia.
No, and it will never happen. You may be thinking: With so many “no”s, aren’t you winning the argument? No, you aren’t. You’ve been so drawn into the “cool” factor of Flash taht you’re forgetting what HTML is used for - to display web pages. Not 3D virtual worlds, but web pages. The HTML DOM + JavaScript should work to enhance web pages - you can use Flash/Java/Silverlight/whatever for everything else. I have admitted a few flaws of the HTML DOM, but it will be fixed, eventually. What I’m trying to say this whole time is that developers should use the right tool for the job. The obligatory car analogy is obvious here - an SUV (Flash) can go anywhere (those “virtual worlds” you talked about), but for navigating the city (web pages), a sedan (JavaScript and the HTML DOM) will beat Flash at its own game. The canvas element also works, to an extent, on Internet Explorer. All developers need to do is use the ExplorerCanvas [sourceforge.net] JavaScript library. Sure, if you need to be on the “edge”. For everyone else, JavaScript and the HTML DOM are just fine. Finally, what’s with your… “exotic” use of the semicolon? You need to use the period while you’re programming as well, you know.
PierceP Says:
First let’s remember the context of the orginal discussion, rich internet application development; I was just responding to the silly claim that flash player based applications offers little advantage when compared to to the technology stack of javascript, CSS and DHTML; Yes, while AS3 is indeed based on ECMAScript; to say that is it JavaScript in disguise is completey inaccurate; While the syntax may be similar, AS3 is a significant departure from its older sibling and there is no disguising the fact that you understand this; Did i read your reply correctly? Did you not mention the prototyplical nature of javascript when compared to as3’s class-based inheritance system? Why overshadow such a tremondous difference which directly relates to the first point made in my earlier post and one you very interestingly enough choose not to mention in your response, SPEED; As far as i know javascript fails to receive any efficiency gains from a class based programing approach combined with strict typing; Speed is crucial when trying to take experiences that once where the mononoply of desktop environments and placing them on the web where they can be freely accessed everywhere; And this is why the Flash platform is currently the best choice for rich-application-development especailly when compared to the before mentioned combination of javascript, css, and dhtml ;For anyone to suggest applications written in Flash are in the twilight of there importance are whims of extereme ignorance of how both the web and the world are changing; In my opinion and expierence with both sets of technologies, a combination of javascript, css, and dhtml fall far below the level of code sophistication and visual richness require to take the internet forward and accomplish all that it possibly can; While yes you may suggest that javascript, html, and the DOM are more than an adquete solution when it comes to displaying text on a page and i am sure many will agree with you; However there is a growing group of us that aren’t ok with just being “fine”; And what is wrong with looking at the browser and saying this is not enough and downloading a fantastic extension to its capibilites; To remark the web doesn’t need 3d rendering is to belittle the reality in which we live; To over-estimate the daily utility of forms and input boxes and under-estimate the vast entertainment potential of the greatest medium of our lifetimes is a supreme lack of imagination; To envision the internet as best served as a textual expierence … well these are just the dreams of a luddite; I believe at the root of this discussion is innovation and the speed at which it occurs; Again there is a growing group of us that aren’t ok with the internet being just “fine”; It is this young growing crowd of US that will not wait years for some far away white tower committee to ok the next browser advance; We are a thickening core that values creativity and color and will gladly pay in sweat or cash for these prothetics to our imaginaion; And in the end when its all over we’re going drive that adobe manufactured suv right over the top your web 2.0 mutherf***ing head;
EDIT:Here i am much later in the future and this post kinda of embarassasses me. I really dont want to drive anything over anyone’s head; I think this outburst came from a bit of rage which had been building up while working at wello horld and having to constantly fight for my postition and what i passionately wanted to contribute; It was hard; We made the right descion to use flash in the interface; Switching away from it was stupid and the mistake of old men who should spend their time golfing instead of wasting our time and talent trying to strike oil in plains of cyberspace;
